tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post1590411477356611704..comments2024-03-27T09:17:51.095-07:00Comments on Done by Forty: President Obama Emailed Me About the Minimum WageDone By Fortyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-74494045371535399272014-02-28T21:30:17.973-07:002014-02-28T21:30:17.973-07:00I read DC's comment before you replied, and I ...I read DC's comment before you replied, and I thought it was the most compelling argument against the raise, but then I thought of the same problem as you...you're going to have a hard time outsourcing a greeter for WalMart if you want to employ people legally. <br />I think ultimately this comes down to a philosophical debate and here's why: raising the minimum wage, even by that much, isn't going to change people's lives that dramatically. It's a difference of about $5300-5900 per year for a family of three, depending on if the parents are married or not, when you account for the EIC (which is essentially another way for corporations to get taxpayers to pay their lowest paid workers their wages for them.) For some that extra money may equate to a loss or decrease in benefits that they are eligible to receive such as supplemental nutrition assistance or childcare services, which may cut in to how much profit they'd actually be making off of this increase. (Not that you should game the system, but a lot of times the people who are right there on the cusp are the ones who are really working hard and end up struggling ten times harder to get by than those who work less because of their work ethic.) The optimistic six grand over the course of an entire year may be helpful, but not overwhelmingly so. THEN there's the whole problem of employers not wanting to give minimum wage worker full-time hours even as of present because doing so would mean they'd have to pay out more for benefits. So many (not all) work part-time not by volition, but by limitation.<br />I would agree with a gradual increase, expect that it's been so long since we've had an increase compared to how inflation has risen that I feel like the window for that gradual option has passed.<br />So I think ultimately it comes down to philosophy...should companies pay or taxpayers? And realizing that if companies pay, the ones that will be hurt the most are the smaller ones, not the large corporations. <br />I have mixed feelings. Idealistically I want the companies to pay and the burden to be taken off the taxpayers. But I also know many small business owners who would have to cut staff to meet these new requirements. Do they then deserve to fail? Capitalism would say so. But I don't know what I say.Femme Frugalityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07258982361804942329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-24671483061841848282014-02-27T16:48:09.652-07:002014-02-27T16:48:09.652-07:00Great points about the ancillary benefits of a hig...Great points about the ancillary benefits of a higher minimum wage. The economy likely benefits, too, as people on that end of the wage scale are likely going to spend nearly all that raise.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-6023384478129536952014-02-26T21:40:11.555-07:002014-02-26T21:40:11.555-07:00We need a stronger minimum wage as there are many ...We need a stronger minimum wage as there are many people that the best they can ever be is a fast food worker, or a landscape person. Jobs like this are no longer stepping stones, but careers.<br /><br />A higher minimum wage will also boost Social Security taxes.<br /><br />A higher minimum wage will allow landlords to increase rents. A great benefit!<br /><br />A higher minimum wage will boost tech spending, as companies further automate tasks that people used to do for a lower wage.<br /><br />So, a higher minimum wage is great for some, assuming you are worth what they pay you.<br />No Nonsense Landlordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01765461019959574461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-74856376953416028222014-02-26T19:06:48.018-07:002014-02-26T19:06:48.018-07:00Thanks, Brian! I agree that there'd probably n...Thanks, Brian! I agree that there'd probably never a point at which everyone is satisfied with the minimum wage. There's no end to our desire for more money. But, as for it raising in the first place: it has to, due to inflation. In Raising it to $10.10 would not even give the minimum wage the purchasing power it had in decades past.<br /><br />As for when enough is enough, I'd be happy with a wage that raised full time employees above the poverty line...if only to alleviate the taxpayer subsidizing those workers' healthcare, housing, and food purchases.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-53625693655838222712014-02-26T18:19:36.510-07:002014-02-26T18:19:36.510-07:00Wow...interesting discussion here with good points...Wow...interesting discussion here with good points on both sides. At some point I believe the whole argument of raising the minimum wage breaks down and gets real blurry. Where does the salary point end? We may say "Oh, I'd like it at $10/hr." Sure enough it goes to $10 and we all feel real good about ourselves. Then someone wants it at 12 and we feel even better. Then 15, then 20. Would we be OK with someone making $20/hr. minimum wage? I don't know. What about $50. It may sound ridiculous but whatever salary point we raise it to, it will never be enough. People will always think they deserve more. And it doesn't help them in reality. Basic economics says that when the cost of labor and doing business goes up, so does the cost of goods and services. So people may be making more but they are also spending more, so it's a wash. Great topic!Brian @ Luke1428http://luke1428.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-5888070987661456732014-02-26T13:11:33.598-07:002014-02-26T13:11:33.598-07:00That's a great story of a grass roots movement...That's a great story of a grass roots movement yielding results, Bryce. I agree, it could be much higher.<br /><br />I'm partially selfish in my position, too. I just don't want to subsidize government aid to make up for poverty level wages. I much prefer the employer, and its customers, to pay. Then, the cost of our goods/services more fully reflects their true cost. Currently, there's a hidden cost with things like fast food, which is baked into our taxes.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-54180870630149477542014-02-26T13:09:06.275-07:002014-02-26T13:09:06.275-07:00Agreed on both points, Andrew. Since a lot of empl...Agreed on both points, Andrew. Since a lot of employers don't have to compete for these unskilled laborers, the only way wages will rise to keep up with inflation is to increase the minimum wage. Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-70238493783791744962014-02-26T12:05:40.946-07:002014-02-26T12:05:40.946-07:00I would be happy if the minimum wage were raised e...I would be happy if the minimum wage were raised even higher to something like $12/hour. As you point out, there are lots of social costs associated with underpaying employees. Unfortunately, the current make-up of Congress will probably not pass this on the national scale. I am glad to see many states doing it, though. In California, the minimum wage has been increased to $9, and will go up to $10 in 2016. That's not enough, but it's better than the federal min. The city I live in has raised the minimum wage to $10.15/hour. Good for San Jose and the students at San Jose State that started the movement.Bryce @ Save and Conquerhttp://www.saveandconquer.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-54008668459448291252014-02-26T11:32:01.297-07:002014-02-26T11:32:01.297-07:00I can see arguments on both sides and sometimes I ...I can see arguments on both sides and sometimes I flip flop as to how I feel about it. Part of me feels that the companies with record profits should pay their employees a little more. It probably is a good move as you'll probably have a happier and more productive workforce. But on the other hand, most of these jobs are low skills jobs. There is plenty of supply of low-skilled workers and they are easily replaced, so there is no need to pay more. The low-skilled worker needs to provide more value.Andrew@LivingRichCheaplyhttp://www.livingrichcheaply.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-12985832183458846742014-02-26T07:16:10.382-07:002014-02-26T07:16:10.382-07:00Hey, Anna! I'm not as optimistic on the financ...Hey, Anna! I'm not as optimistic on the financial education front, but that's a whole nother post. ;) Agreed on the ability for some companies to increase wages; probably without drastically increasing prices, too.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-65344200164661296672014-02-26T07:14:49.971-07:002014-02-26T07:14:49.971-07:00Sarah, great thoughts, as always! I really like yo...Sarah, great thoughts, as always! I really like your take on the abortion issue, and will have to ponder if that's something that I might adopt. I'm in complete agreement about the ability for prices to increase here at home.<br /><br />Consumers think they are more sensitive to price than they really are. If all grocery store baggers and cashiers are paid more, and grocery prices across the board increase, will consumers really start gardening? Will they really give up fast food? Hotel stays? I doubt it.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-31775989308991669512014-02-25T21:07:56.048-07:002014-02-25T21:07:56.048-07:00I would agree with Laurie that education also need...I would agree with Laurie that education also needs to go along with raising the minimum wage (heck, at any economic level since I see people pulling high salaries just squander money away). I do think big chains can definitely afford it and treat their employees better with more livable wages.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-77445031137696993812014-02-25T16:45:15.965-07:002014-02-25T16:45:15.965-07:00I think the US minimum wage is disgraceful! I can&...I think the US minimum wage is disgraceful! I can't imagine how anyone lives on it, and I think raising it is a great idea. I also think, comparatively the costs of things and services in the US are low, largely due to a low wage economy, and there is room for prices to increase in line with a minimum wage increase. I think the employers concern about viability with higher wages can be a problem, but in a small business, there's nothing stopping an owner drawing no wage (essentially living in poverty), but I don't think an owner could/should profit even 1c whilst their staff are below the poverty line - that seems completely horrible and unChristian.<br /><br />Comment above before reading others comments, comments below in response to some thoughts I read.<br /><br />Re comments above, I am personally pro life (as in, my choices) but I will let others chose abortion. Why shouldn't I? Contraception is good and well, until we look at rape, and 'rape' isn't just what's reported either, but forced sex and conception are also worthy of abortion. Again, not that I would chose this myself, I am liberal enough to allow others to.<br /><br />Re:outsourcing and automation - irrespective of wages, this is likely to happen nonetheless. It's just how it is (and I say this with a min wage in Australia hovering at at leats $18/hr I think!!)<br /><br />Lastly, job losses and unskilled labour. I ended up being paid as a florist (junior) not because I was skilled, no one at 14 is, but because I offered free labour. IN effect, I worked two weeks free and then offered my paid services. If they'd said no to pay, at least I have skills. I think no matter what the wage is, this option is viable to people. Motivation is a WHOLE other ball game. And yes, you can't volunteer your labour day in day out forever, but you can for 1-2 weeks, with savings. I mean, if you're not working, what else are you going to do, and if you are working, then you're halfway out of the problem...SarahN @ livetolisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01429385342825413879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-63381790047136098012014-02-24T22:08:18.342-07:002014-02-24T22:08:18.342-07:00That's a middle ground that I think would sati...That's a middle ground that I think would satisfy both sides, long-term, EM. Tying the minimum wage to a gradual increase over time would keep its purchasing power and protect businesses from drastic increases to labor costs.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-16230536534938185862014-02-24T22:06:26.279-07:002014-02-24T22:06:26.279-07:00Fair enough, DC. But per Reich's video and you...Fair enough, DC. But per Reich's video and your post on outsourcing, a lot of these workers are in jobs that are relatively protected from competition overseas. The guy flipping burgers, the woman cleaning a hotel room, these are the kind of jobs that are likely to result in higher prices for consumers, rather than mass outsourcing to Indonesia. Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-21689521578481030912014-02-24T22:04:52.552-07:002014-02-24T22:04:52.552-07:00Your scenario is logical but I'm really hoping...Your scenario is logical but I'm really hoping that isn't the case, Mrs. Y. You can't outsource a Walmart greeter, you know? But you can replace the cashier with an automated check out stand. I'll admit that as wages increase, alternatives like that do seem to be more likely.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-33677397589785494602014-02-24T22:03:18.727-07:002014-02-24T22:03:18.727-07:00Those are all fair points, Emily. When I first mov...Those are all fair points, Emily. When I first moved to San Diego I cut my teeth in a WIC office, and some of my viewpoints are probably shaped by that work as well. I do see the benefit of helping those who are already working, if the alternative is simply having more people unemployed. <br /><br />I'm hopeful that, because many of these jobs cannot be outsourced internationally, that the impact on unemployment will be mitigated.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-29200501279206203822014-02-24T22:00:04.971-07:002014-02-24T22:00:04.971-07:00The figure from the CBO report is worrisome. But w...The figure from the CBO report is worrisome. But we have data from states with higher minimum wages: they don't have higher rates of unemployment than states still using the lower federal minimum wage. Additionally, when accounting for inflation, this wage is not out of line with past minimum wages. Basically, I'm not entirely trustful of that 500,000 lost jobs figure.<br /><br />Agreed on the gradual approach though: tying the minimum wage to the CPI or some percentage of median wages would result in a smoother path than these big jumps we're seeing.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-44818744686971214422014-02-24T20:27:11.390-07:002014-02-24T20:27:11.390-07:00I have to admit I'm not well versed on this to...I have to admit I'm not well versed on this topic, but reading the comments has been rather enlightening. I see the points of both sides, and I have to second Holly's concern with those making lower, $10/hr wages currently. To bring minimum wage workers up to that right away might seem like a slap in the face to some. Maybe gradually is our best bet.E.M.http://journeytosaving.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-60726032714903442092014-02-24T20:19:44.256-07:002014-02-24T20:19:44.256-07:00I think the more you raise the minimum wage the mo...I think the more you raise the minimum wage the more incentive companies have to outsource work to people who can do it for less and/or invest in technology that replaces minimum wage workers. I don't feel like writing a 1,000 word comment so I'll just leave it at that : )DC @ Young Adult Moneyhttp://www.youngadultmoney.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-39886936773095313912014-02-24T19:56:19.193-07:002014-02-24T19:56:19.193-07:00A gradual minimum wage perhaps but at 10.10 that&#...A gradual minimum wage perhaps but at 10.10 that's nearly 40%. It's not going to doom our country per se but hurts those at the bottom the most. It will benefit the lower middle class and hurt the poor. CBO projected it will lift 900,000 out of poverty but will cost 500,000 jobs. Those 500,000 low paying jobs means no starting skill set. If i was starting out with no skills no one would hire me at $10, which will prevent me from obtaining the work habits I need. Charles@gettingarichlifehttp://gettingarichlife.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-83764886235871882312014-02-24T18:33:28.952-07:002014-02-24T18:33:28.952-07:00Raising the minimum wage has been a very sensitive...Raising the minimum wage has been a very sensitive subject. I agree that $7.25 is wage that probably can’t even cover the bare minimum living expenses. Most personal finance bloggers talk about having living expenses at $22k a year or less. The $7.25 wage will get you to $15k pre tax, meaning $13.5K a year assuming a 10% tax rate. That makes you about 40% short of a somewhat comfortable frugal living lifestyle.<br /> <br />Most companies nowadays try to operate as lean as possible - meaning many workers are doing more than one person’s job, and spending overtime in the office unpaid. Increasing overhead expenses per head means either reducing workforce or moving to cheaper labor areas to stay competitive. I believe that will apply to some of the minimum wage paid jobs as well. Mrs Yhttp://live-happy-retire-early.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-4224704167532980052014-02-24T18:09:52.596-07:002014-02-24T18:09:52.596-07:00I'll be one of the few dissenters, but it'...I'll be one of the few dissenters, but it's certainly a controversial topic that everyone needs to make their own decisions about.<br /><br />My viewpoint is driven by two things: an economic perspective and my personal experience of being one of those minimum wage earner single parents, as well as a social worker who has worked with said min. wage earners. <br /><br />On the economic side, it seems logical to me that when we artificially increase the cost of labor, we also increase the cost of products. As several people commented, the consumer can choose to buy it or not. Problem is - many will choose to pass due to higher costs. I know I do all the time. With financial losses, employers are forced to cut jobs or replace employees with automated solutions. The loss of jobs would result in a higher unemployment rate - and therefore more people who are fully depending on taxpayer programs to get by, not just supplemental assistance. From a purely frugal taxpayer point of view, I would rather help someone who working out with $400 a month food assistance than foot the bill for $1000/month food assistance, plus $700/month in cash TANF assistance, plus Medicaid. This video explains my rationale: http://youtu.be/j0c2vmFGbtk<br /><br />Bottom line (for me): I believe that the minimum wage creates increased unemployment. I value people having jobs more than I value what they get paid, because I have consistently seen the impact on overall income, self-esteem, productivity, family stability, safe housing, etc. Plus, as a taxpayer, I would really rather support those who are working, gaining experience, and have the potential to increase their income through raises, promotions, tuition reimbursement, etc. <br /><br />Loved the different perspectives and commentary. The only way to make good decisions (or at least vote for those decisions) is to engage in discourse around these issues so that we can all be a bit more aware and open-minded. Em Capito, LCSWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07690949620210399390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-87707936065553958282014-02-24T16:41:42.198-07:002014-02-24T16:41:42.198-07:00I doubt those sort of consequences await us. $10.1...I doubt those sort of consequences await us. $10.10 per hour still has a lower purchasing power than the minimum wages in decades past. Why didn't those past minimum wages doom our economy?Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-314218125632951882014-02-24T16:39:15.737-07:002014-02-24T16:39:15.737-07:00True. I want to believe Reich, and accept that rai...True. I want to believe Reich, and accept that raising the minimum wage won't have huge impacts (citing how states with higher minimum wages don't have higher unemployment). But it's tough to say.<br /><br />That said, we've increased it regularly in the past. So there's precedence for things not getting too messed up.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.com