tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post5281622239826269616..comments2024-03-27T09:17:51.095-07:00Comments on Done by Forty: 2016 Was the Worst (Our Annual Spending)Done By Fortyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-84861958981804311542017-04-13T13:52:09.247-07:002017-04-13T13:52:09.247-07:00I like Tin's ideas. My wife and I were recent...I like Tin's ideas. My wife and I were recently at the beach browsing shops where blouses with holes in them (the fashion) were selling for 60 dollars and bathing suits were 160 dollars and she said "I won't buy a dress that costs more than 15 dollars." I was shocked. I knew she was frugal, but not that frugal.Dwaynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04059182709343125480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-62144267038921161622017-04-13T13:34:26.834-07:002017-04-13T13:34:26.834-07:00On second thought, while working in the garage, if...On second thought, while working in the garage, if you are practicing to spend 4% that is another story.<br /><br />Frankly I think people should think of their stash as F-U money rather than early retirement since it seems few have the nerve to retire early once they've hit the magic number. Shooting for the number for over a decade or even 2 decades and when they hit it all the doubt in the world hits them it seems. Dwaynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04059182709343125480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-39215109200022328982017-04-13T07:52:09.433-07:002017-04-13T07:52:09.433-07:00EcoCatLady nailed it. I enjoy woodworking, an inno...EcoCatLady nailed it. I enjoy woodworking, an innocent enough hobby, but I buy some tools occasionally and definitely need to buy wood, screws, glue and nails on a regular basis. I don't know what I'd do with my extra time in the evenings if I didn't have something to tinker with so although it comes with an expense, I'm still SAVING one heck of a lot of money no matter this small amount I'm spending to tinker with wood. That is what I have to keep in mind, how much I'm still saving in relationship to my spending. Personally I think it is ridiculous for a couple making 350k annually to spend 40k annually. If they are saving 50% of that annually, they are probably doing better than 95% of all others making the same.<br /><br />I honestly don't know what people who have super low budgets do with their time. Doing things involves spending money. I don't want to sit in my house watching TV or surfing the net all evening and I don't want to exercise all evening everyday either. <br /><br />Remember when it was revealed that MMM was making 400k on his blog and he maintained that he still lived on 24k annually. I never really trusted everything he said, but this took the cake. To claim one lives on 24k a year and vacations with other families to save money while making 400k is just fraudulent and ridiculous on so many levels.Dwaynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04059182709343125480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-55359105186039737432017-03-06T08:34:29.338-07:002017-03-06T08:34:29.338-07:00I suspect your baby is already far smarter than ou...I suspect your baby is already far smarter than our puppy, and it's all downhill from here, too. While your progeny is learning to speak, ours will still be jumping onto guests when they enter our house despite our commands...<br /><br />I really do hope we can get under $40k with the new mortgage, but the proof will be in the pudding. I think travel will certainly need to be curtailed for this to happen.<br /><br />And as you noted, we can probably waver around $40k so long as it averges out in the end. Need to remind myself that this is how data works: it's lumpy.<br /><br />Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-11622351920728506632017-03-06T01:08:53.420-07:002017-03-06T01:08:53.420-07:00Your spending looks around the same as ours, altho...Your spending looks around the same as ours, although we spend a little more on housing costs right now, I expect your 2017 expense report will look very similar to ours. Instead of a dog we have a baby though - very similar IQ and behaviour at this stage of her life though haha.<br /><br />I think you can come in at under 40k with just a small amount of attention paid back to our old friend frugality. <br /><br />Saying that it seems a rather arbitrary target and as I'm sure I've said before you will be making money somehow when you reach ER, I can all but guarantee that. So if your nest egg only covers say 38k at 4% then you'll be fine spending say 43k as surely will end up earning 5k a year on average just by messing about doing some stuff you find fun. <br /><br />Good luck for 2017, I always enjoy reading your financial updates as I think we have the same mindset on spending. theFIREstarter.co.ukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11161550795321520113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-36624680872452060732017-03-01T23:29:25.465-07:002017-03-01T23:29:25.465-07:00I have to apologize -- it looks like your comment ...I have to apologize -- it looks like your comment got caught in the spam filter, which is a shame as it's such a nice comment full of perspective and wisdom.<br /><br />We have a ton to be grateful for. Sincerely, thank you for reminding me of that.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-84686784379652290732017-03-01T23:22:01.391-07:002017-03-01T23:22:01.391-07:00You write the best comments. There's something...You write the best comments. There's something in the water from those three rivers.<br /><br />I do get the sneaking suspicion that when we reach FIRE, we will see it was just another mountain, with more on the horizon. Maybe that's okay, but it's better to understand that this goal is just that: one more accomplishment, and not a substitute for life purpose. Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-53264383916329025242017-02-27T22:06:14.996-07:002017-02-27T22:06:14.996-07:00I hear the existential crisis! And I will answer w...I hear the existential crisis! And I will answer with the only thing I know: for me, money wasn't the answer.<br />The flip side of frugality in reference to FIRE is a decently ridiculous income. Formerly, I worked in education where that was laughable. When I started working for myself and the sky was the limit, I looked at people around me and realized that I didn't want to be that obsessed with work. Yes, providing is important, but I didn't need a ludicrous income to do so... unless I wanted to do the FIRE thing. <br />For me, I decided other areas were worth more to me. I wanted to explore philosophy. Truth. Existential hippie and Platonic stuff that doesn't involve money at all. In order to do that and successfully raise children, even with frugality, I'd have to be okay with not working a bajillion hours a week.<br />I'm just now getting to the place where I feel fulfilled. Which is why I think we set goals in the first place: to revel in accomplishment. For me, reaching monetary goals only led to looking out at the next mountain peak, never truly enjoying what I accomplished.<br />If FIRE is what gets you there, please pursue it full-force! Push that goal and sit happy on your mountain top. I just found that the mountain I felt happy settling upon had a different modality. And there's nothing wrong with that. Either way.Femme Frugalityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07258982361804942329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-68327408740552453552017-02-17T10:57:12.342-07:002017-02-17T10:57:12.342-07:00I think you're being too hard on yourself. Tak...I think you're being too hard on yourself. Take some time to sit and reflect on what you have, in the here and now. <br />You have a home.<br />You will have a lovely future home.<br />You have a wonderful, loving wife.<br />You will have wonderful, loving children in the future <br />You live in a safe place, no wars, no conflict, no 'huge' religious pressure to dress or act in a particular way. You walk the streets safely. <br />You have savings <br />You will continue to work to continue to have savings.<br />You eat well, many people throughout the world do not. <br />You travel, and you travel in sadly and comfortably. <br />You will continue to travel, you are very fortunate.<br />You have a plan for your future retirement and who cares if you go a little off piste at least you are aware of your short comings and so can adjust.<br />You have your health, your wife has her health.<br />Sadly your dog has been poorly, but remember you were in the very fortunate position to pay for her care. <br />You have your wits.<br /><br />Be thankful. Take a deep breath and carry on as you are because you have family and friends who love you.<br /><br />Sorry for rambling. We are lucky in Britain to have the NHS. <br /><br />SMWhttp://supermoneywoman.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-60086867838090772032017-02-12T10:05:50.744-07:002017-02-12T10:05:50.744-07:00First, sorry for the long delay in responding. I&#...First, sorry for the long delay in responding. I've read this a couple times and wanted to wait till I had some time to sit and think -- there's a lot of good stuff here.<br /><br />What you said about not wanting to ratchet lifestyle down too much with kids makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, I'm not really that frugal myself so I can only imagine that with kids, things might only shift even more towards the "comfort" side of things.<br /><br />And, yes, there's a ton of pressure within the early retirement/FI community to spend at a low level. Frugality is not just a tool for financial independence: it's esteemed as a virtue in its own right. That can be good, but we're also playing with fire (he-he) a bit, too. Why lionize a specific type of living?<br /><br />I'm still trying to figure out what part of all these goals is mine, and which parts I've unwittingly taken from other bloggers, society at large, expectations from family & friends (or what I think others expect), all of that. Like you said, it's okay if my goals don't look the same as everyone else's. I suspect my problem is that I'm not 100% on all these goals just yet: that is, what happens if I'm not really done by forty? Is that perfectly okay, or is this a moment where I should buckle down and push myself, just to see if I can follow through on the goal?Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-50844080630607596182017-02-11T11:15:53.984-07:002017-02-11T11:15:53.984-07:00Revanche--that sucks. There's one or two we st...Revanche--that sucks. There's one or two we still qualify for, and the health insurance deduction is huge, but it's still just a deduction for something I already paid for.<br /><br />And yes, DB40, you have to feed them lol! I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any place stateside where you came out even... Even if you were the most frugal ever. Femme Frugalityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07258982361804942329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-17551602443596822592017-02-10T12:27:19.358-07:002017-02-10T12:27:19.358-07:00Agreed. The best advice can still be the best, eve...Agreed. The best advice can still be the best, even if it cannot be applied universally.<br /><br />We're not engineering society here...we're keeping our progeny away from bad people. :)Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-76172693902714069172017-02-10T10:09:40.880-07:002017-02-10T10:09:40.880-07:00Done by Forty: Alas, it IS time to move - well ahe...Done by Forty: Alas, it IS time to move - well ahead of my lightly planned timeline. I wanted another 3-4 years to save before we committed it, so we'd have at least another $100K to put into the down payment. The whinging will continue over at my place ;) Revanche @ A Gai Shan Lifehttp://www.agaishanlife.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-72536270116994591622017-02-09T17:00:53.909-07:002017-02-09T17:00:53.909-07:00As a final thought, I think a lot of people do the...As a final thought, I think a lot of people do the step down, but in reverse. They retire full time, then many of us slowly ease back into the market (often with a correspondingly reduced pay after a few years). I'd rather ease out which maintains resume continuity, etc.Morgannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-74241686043576916502017-02-09T16:58:56.587-07:002017-02-09T16:58:56.587-07:00It's inclusive of the mortgage but doesn't...It's inclusive of the mortgage but doesn't include our savings or investments (we are doing some work on the house that will improve it's equity and that number isn't here either(which immediately makes it sound as if we spend oodles on remodeling that I hid from my numbers but that's not the case)).<br /><br />And it's a bit of a cheat because we put down nearly 50% of the current house sale so the mortgage is a lot lower than most to begin with, then we did a 5/1 Arm at 2.75% so the payment is very low regardless.<br /><br />Finally, it's just the two of us, no kids and we both grew up without a lot so we are feeling pretty flush with cash.Morgannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-51001127720634970882017-02-09T16:02:54.229-07:002017-02-09T16:02:54.229-07:00Hi Revanche: I agree that having separate househol...Hi Revanche: I agree that having separate households is going to make cutting the numbers down beyond a certain point impossible. You have two rents/mortgages, two sets of utilities, etc. Sorry to hear about the neighbor situation. Maybe it's time to move! :)<br /><br />Femme Frugality: yeah, I suppose if you went bare bones maybe you can take the $2k in tax credits and come out ahead. But, man, at least with the insurance I'll be buying for my kid, that's going to eat up the figure all on its own. And I assume I have to feed him, too?Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-45046167616602055972017-02-09T15:59:29.483-07:002017-02-09T15:59:29.483-07:00Good summary there, Tin. I think they'll be wo...Good summary there, Tin. I think they'll be worth it, too.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-20524734924472734532017-02-09T14:34:06.195-07:002017-02-09T14:34:06.195-07:00Yeah that's everything I'm thinking of and...Yeah that's everything I'm thinking of and we make just enough not to qualify for most of the tax credits. 2017 looks like the logical extension of 2016, unfortunately. Revanche @ A Gai Shan Lifehttp://www.agaishanlife.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-42711129898564435232017-02-09T13:23:19.169-07:002017-02-09T13:23:19.169-07:00Yeah, you get the AGI deduction for each one and $...Yeah, you get the AGI deduction for each one and $1k per kid if you qualify with your income under the child tax and additional child tax credit. And you may qualify for more EIC. You get to deduct their healthcare costs against your AGI if you're self employed. And their childcare costs, but you have to spend money to get that one... Far more than you can possibly make up for the other credits combined in most cases. I'm glad they have figured out a way that works for them, but my kids cost me a lot more per year than the liberal $2k estimate per child that I'm tallying up in my head. I also live in the US where costs are higher and I can actually get the services I need for my special needs kid. Well, for now I can get the services, anyways. 2017 is starting off with massive sucky things, too, now that I think about it.<br /><br />But for most American families, the tax code does not enable children to become money-earning machines. The net is negative. Femme Frugalityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07258982361804942329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-54599254188666134172017-02-09T13:14:06.448-07:002017-02-09T13:14:06.448-07:00There's definitely a trade off to financial in...There's definitely a trade off to financial independence. I respect it, but I don't know that--with children, at least--I'd be willing to lower my standard of living too much. I lived on less than a shoestring before them. In fact, I'd like it to increase. And I don't think that makes me any less financially savvy. Just realistic about how I want to raise my family and live my life. Our spending is about the same, though we have rent that's higher than your new mortgage, kids and all their fixings. But we live in super affordable Pittsburgh--maybe in AZ our numbers would be higher.<br /><br />I guess what I'm trying to say is don't feel like you have to deprive yourself of the things you love in order to fit some FI mold. It's weird outside our community, but within it I feel like there's some peer pressure or judgement if we make different life choices. If you want to buckle down and reduce lifestyle expenses permanently, mad kudos. But if you don't there's not anything inherently wrong with you.<br /><br />As for frugality, which I highly endorse, it looks like the area that will have the biggest effect is travel. Since you don't have kids yet, get creative with lodging while you can. Hostels, Airbnb private rooms, cabins, huts...I used to even do trucker motels prior to children, but that was often a braver choice than huts. Once you have kids you are not going to want to our be able to do (most) of those things, though, so that is a temporary fix. I know you guys travel hack, but with that amount of spending I'm assuming you're not hitting enough bonuses to cover ALL the hotels and/or plane tickets. Another option is to work your network and stay with friends wherever they may be. Can alter itineraries a bit, but it's usually worth the savings.<br /><br />I'd buy larger cases of beer and even do cans over bottles to cut back on costs. I understand you can get coupons for alcohol, too, but, alas, I live in over regulated PA so I'm not much help there.<br /><br />I realize my overarching opinion on this may not be popular. Know that I'm not trying to dissuade you from your goals... Just attempting to let you know it's okay if your goals don't look the same as everyone else's. Which I know you already know. :)<br /><br />Femme Frugalityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07258982361804942329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-29444929592629574902017-02-08T16:30:48.635-07:002017-02-08T16:30:48.635-07:00I also am highly skeptical of any savings with kid...I also am highly skeptical of any savings with kids. Sounds like a nice click bait piece but unless you're putting them under the stairs and feeding them break and water, the economics don't really work. ;-). The only way to maybe finagle a financial model that would work that I've ever been able to think of is to model your elderly years where you get to live with them instead of living in a home.<br /><br />Bottom line: Kids cost you.<br />Bottom bottom line: But they're worth it.Tinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17710280020482764792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-85819143867438643432017-02-08T16:23:35.346-07:002017-02-08T16:23:35.346-07:00Yes, I've given thought to the daughter thing ...Yes, I've given thought to the daughter thing too. I would tell her "don't marry an ahole" and also "don't marry a leech". In short, she should marry equal/up also...and education level is generally a good starting point, followed by "is he a jerk".<br /><br />Of course, that begs the question, "but if everyone followed your model Tin, no one would get married except equals because everyone would be looking for someone equal or up, how do you account for that?". The answer is, I don't account for it, as there are plenty of people who won't follow my model regardless.Tinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17710280020482764792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-1500088142892104702017-02-08T15:45:31.517-07:002017-02-08T15:45:31.517-07:00"Ahh...but you forgot about child tax benefit..."Ahh...but you forgot about child tax benefits...Jeremy from gocurrycracker says he actually ended up making money as a result. YAY! Free money!" <br /><br />I think I'm missing something very key in our tax strategy here because I have no idea how to finagle making money from having a child! <br /><br />We're averaging closer to $26K per person a year, and I keep wondering why on earth it's so high. One reason is that one person is in entirely a separate household so that makes it really hard to cut that baseline cost of a separate dwelling, but we also spend somewhat freely on food and travel. Also childcare. <br /><br />Our 2016 was bad for spending, too. I had planned to totally revamp our budget this year but uh, life and horrible neighbors happened so that's going to have a very negative effect. Revanche @ A Gai Shan Lifehttp://www.agaishanlife.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-49325396752458306612017-02-08T13:04:38.924-07:002017-02-08T13:04:38.924-07:00I hear you. I was probably reading too much in to ...I hear you. I was probably reading too much in to "robbing your future" phrase.<br /><br />I do want to find a good equilibrium for spending and saving. The goal of retiring by 40 is motivating but it's also a bit constricting: it's a very public goal that's frankly a bit in jeopardy. We'll see.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-43886056061854554602017-02-08T13:02:38.895-07:002017-02-08T13:02:38.895-07:00Paint me skeptical, but I doubt even most frugal p...Paint me skeptical, but I doubt even most frugal parents come out ahead financially when having kids, if only due to the healthcare premiums and costs. I have a lot of admiration for those leveraging global arbitrage and trotting around our little planet, but such outliers, who are great for motivating and serving as examples for stories, are often poor examples to serve as a benchmark.<br /><br />The travel is clearly the big culprit this year, but it's an outlier, too. Most years we are in the $6k range or so. My very rough guess is that we'll shift that $6k towards extra kid costs like insurance, a little extra food, supplies, etc.<br /><br />And your last paragraph is the key: just keep tracking, and adjust as we go. I'm hoping to come in under that figure but up our lifestyle a bit (bigger, newer house).Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.com