tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post6787356278215195900..comments2024-03-29T03:03:36.922-07:00Comments on Done by Forty: Your Purchases Can't Buy You ClassDone By Fortyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-69462550586476580442016-11-17T09:46:46.117-07:002016-11-17T09:46:46.117-07:00Thanks for that thoughtful comment, Chris. Good on...Thanks for that thoughtful comment, Chris. Good on you for teaching your children about finances. I wish my parents had (or maybe they tried, and I just wouldn't listen).<br /><br />Phones, in particular, are a real drain on your finances if you go the traditional route. We're huge fans of MNVOs (we use AirVoice Wireless and get the AT&T network, but pay dirt cheap prices: $30 total a month for two phones...$20 for the missus, $10 for me). Which all goes to say, there's probably even more squishiness in the purchases-define-class mentality than it seems, since frugal folks can make normal-seeming purchases for less money than average.<br /><br />Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-34647007724914908832016-11-16T06:58:40.788-07:002016-11-16T06:58:40.788-07:00I really agree with your sentiment. I think teach...I really agree with your sentiment. I think teaching my children about finance and how new cars every 3 years may not mean someone is someone is rich. They may be able to lease to give the appearance...they may in fact be rich....they may be in the middle etc.<br /><br />I myself do buy new cars, because I can't change a lightbulb without help, however I depreciate them thru my business and then end up passing them off to my children as their first cars, so 5 year used car that I know the history of.<br /><br />Teaching kids finance with the "must haves" of iphones and 200 channels is quite the challenge. While we afford the above indulgences, we skimp in other places. I often wonder how people making less keep up with bills I can afford but often am embarrassed I actually indulge in. I would love to see your quintile graph of income plotted against % of income going to family cell phone bill. That would be a scary graph because younger people truly look at cell phones + data plans etc as a need as basic as food and water, they are only starting to be old enough to have to pay for them though !!Chris Haasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-32087059845776254312016-10-30T11:11:31.667-07:002016-10-30T11:11:31.667-07:00That's rad! We'll see how inclined we are ...That's rad! We'll see how inclined we are to travel ourselves once we start caring for our kids, but it's great to know that others are still globetrotting with kids in tow!Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-71773361123933281052016-10-29T15:09:21.031-07:002016-10-29T15:09:21.031-07:00There's no reason to stop or even pause your r...There's no reason to stop or even pause your round the world travel hacking. It gets more tricky with an extra person but our daughter has come with us just fine. She flew business with us as a lap child (for a small fee and they had bassinet for her) when she was under 2. Now she gets her own business class seat. She's 3 and has been to 5 countries over 3 trips. Only issue is that she complains about not having her own TV when we fly economy when we are domestic. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-5070252965241912022016-10-27T15:54:48.602-07:002016-10-27T15:54:48.602-07:00Yeah, I am no bankruptcy expert. I remember hearin...Yeah, I am no bankruptcy expert. I remember hearing once that your primary residence, 401k, & IRAs were sometimes outside of the court's purview, but this scammy strategy would really test the limits of that. As always, no real shortcuts.<br /><br />We use credit cards similarly, with an out-of-control spreadsheet keeping track of all the cards, open & close dates, points, etc. We're about to start a family though and our round-the-world travel hacking days may be coming to and end. Or, at least, taking a very long break.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-79985962258673324832016-10-27T15:39:02.436-07:002016-10-27T15:39:02.436-07:00Yeah Bankruptcy court would intervene with that......Yeah Bankruptcy court would intervene with that... But yes one could make an attempt at fooling them. I've recently been closing quite a few cards.. I've been a serial opener for the perks... and Rarely use any credit beyond the minimum spend requirements. tchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17668509660611064028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-30587249975633361712016-10-27T15:29:20.368-07:002016-10-27T15:29:20.368-07:00Whoa! That's a lot. There are probably some le...Whoa! That's a lot. There are probably some less-than-moral opportunities there. (i.e. - using cash advances and gift-card-to-money order strategies, to then pay off mortgages and stuff IRAs, then declaring bankruptcy). Not that any of my readers would or should do that. <br /><br />Still, that level of unsecured debt surely allows us to spend way above our means, if we ever wanted to.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-26965932083512520272016-10-27T15:23:08.407-07:002016-10-27T15:23:08.407-07:00Ahh... yeah my available credit is above $500K on ...Ahh... yeah my available credit is above $500K on credit cards... seriously can't imagine that... A couple of business cards have way higher then needed limits. <br />tchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17668509660611064028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-28816886214186232962016-10-27T09:03:58.609-07:002016-10-27T09:03:58.609-07:00Thanks, Kurt! A while back I did a net-worth quint...Thanks, Kurt! A while back I did a net-worth quintile post that seems similar to your Facebook effort.<br /><br />http://www.donebyforty.com/2015/04/middle-class-wealth.html<br /><br />Unfortunately, Toluna took down the survey, because they viewed it as promotional for the blog. They are the worst. <br /><br />I like the optimism in your comment, too. A real view of our finances really could flip the competition on its head, making keeping up with the Jones a virtuous cycle instead of a vicious one.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-84652986792618386082016-10-27T08:58:52.280-07:002016-10-27T08:58:52.280-07:00Nicely put. Parallel to your point here, I'm a...Nicely put. Parallel to your point here, I'm advocating for people to post on Facebook a summary net worth statement. Two benefits: 1) an 'emperor has no clothes' moment when we see that our neighbor's accoutrements are financed through high-interest loans, and 2) the keeping up with the Joneses phenomenon becomes constructive instead of destructive if it's family balance sheets being compared!Kurthttp://mymoneycounselor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-49920992373599894782016-10-24T16:41:23.695-07:002016-10-24T16:41:23.695-07:00I should be thanking you for bringing that to my a...I should be thanking you for bringing that to my attention. I always just assume everyone else see the blog the same way I do on my old 14" ThinkPad.<br /><br />And thanks for those kind words, too. I'm a fan of those who can write long form, so this may be a case of the grass being greener. :)Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-57883754289432035822016-10-24T15:25:28.020-07:002016-10-24T15:25:28.020-07:00Nice work on the indentation fix, DBF! I really ap...Nice work on the indentation fix, DBF! I really appreciate your writing style by the way: Engaging, concise, and thought-provoking. I feel like I'm working a bit too hard trying to emulate others with 2000 words posts. Yeesh...Cuberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05284434513106168111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-127143199512850792016-10-21T17:27:59.647-07:002016-10-21T17:27:59.647-07:00Hi, Dennis.
Your comment is a good reminder that...Hi, Dennis. <br /><br />Your comment is a good reminder that income and wealth are sometimes correlated, but they're not the same thing. Sometimes you can have a lot of one and hardly any of the other.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-87520696368298721882016-10-21T09:05:21.411-07:002016-10-21T09:05:21.411-07:00It has always been interesting to me how even peop...It has always been interesting to me how even people who drive luxury cars and live in big houses can be poor. Sure they make big money, but if they spend more than they make then they are just digging a big hole that is hard to get out of.Dennis @ NestEggRxhttp://www.nesteggrx.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-81952367547649734542016-10-21T08:50:54.789-07:002016-10-21T08:50:54.789-07:00Hey, Joe!
Yeah, purchases might not be all that a...Hey, Joe!<br /><br />Yeah, purchases might not be all that accurate a measure, but it's one that's somewhat transparent. I get to see the car my neighbor owns when the garage opens (along with some other stuff, too. :) <br /><br />I get the sense that frugal folks have more or less flipped this problem on its head already (how else could they be comfortable in older cars, older clothes, etc.?). But for the average person, I bet they're competing hard w/the Joneses.<br /><br />Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-81197492251208373212016-10-21T08:22:10.413-07:002016-10-21T08:22:10.413-07:00Thanks for the link to the series. I usually don&#...Thanks for the link to the series. I usually don't listen to All Things Considered. This special series sounds good, though. Yeah, seems silly to measure the middle class status by the products we purchase. I guess it's the easiest way because you can see it. Other people can't see your bank account. <br />The key is to to ignore the Jones. I don't care what my neighbors drive and what they have. It's just not a big deal to me. Retire by 40http://retireby40.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-51650201414222624632016-10-20T09:29:29.849-07:002016-10-20T09:29:29.849-07:00Great point about these behaviors being learned an...Great point about these behaviors being learned and passed down. I wish I'd thought to use that angle in the post.<br /><br />The funny thing is that even we frugal people are engaging in the same behavior: our purchases don't reflect our financial situation any more than those of people who spend beyond their means. <br /><br />There's nothing wrong with that, of course. I only bring it up to show that, for most people, it's folly to try to look at their purchases and use that as a heuristic for their financial situation or their economic class. <br />Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-55768380944046106412016-10-19T21:25:29.125-07:002016-10-19T21:25:29.125-07:00You've hit the nail on the head I believe. I ...You've hit the nail on the head I believe. I came from a middle to upper middle class family based on income, but we never wore designer clothes, bought expensive cars. My parents still live in the same house where we my sister and I shared a room and my brother's room was smaller than most walk in closets. My dad grew up with more than enough, but my mother grew up truly dirt poor. They chose to live below their means because they were raised to not care what other people had. My husband's parents were both raised fairly poor for our area and didn't rise into a better earning situation until we were in high school. Despite this they always had the latest and greatest. To this day my husband worries about what people may think of him based on his car. I couldn't care less since it is mine and not the banks. So yes, whether we like it or not, we do judge people by their possessions and we are passing this down from generation to generation. My husband has come along way, but I see it in the people I work with and the students I teach at church. It is really sad, because it is so disingenuous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-78179301199246693482016-10-19T14:03:05.398-07:002016-10-19T14:03:05.398-07:00Thanks, Latoya. One of the main hurdles with deali...Thanks, Latoya. One of the main hurdles with dealing with this class-driven purchasing problem (assuming it even exists) is that few of us ever think in those terms. No one ever thinks, "I'm buying this car so I can show others I live a respectable, middle class life."<br /><br />Rather, we'll say things like, "I work hard, and I deserve this." It's squishy. We get the sense that we ought to have something not due to our ability to afford it or because of a practical benefit, but because we have an intrinsic right to have it. There's a sense of entitlement buried in that sentiment, and it's hard to explain why any of us really "deserve" any item or experience unless there's an underlying reason, like class identity, which signals certain people should have certain things. (To be fair, there are any number of other concepts that drive our purchasing behavior, too.)Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-63205435245161516202016-10-19T12:51:47.166-07:002016-10-19T12:51:47.166-07:00Wow! Now this is some good stuff! This is actually...Wow! Now this is some good stuff! This is actually something Ive never considered before. I definitely dont want to be a part of the middle class if it boils down to going into debt to exist within that class. Latoya @Femme Frugalityhttp://www.femmefrugality.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-13638951669389940722016-10-18T09:14:44.977-07:002016-10-18T09:14:44.977-07:00Yay, wisdom!
"It will matter when said neigh...Yay, wisdom!<br /><br />"It will matter when said neighbor has to file for bky and you as a taxpayer end up footing the bill. :-) "<br /><br />I'm certainly no bankruptcy expert, but don't other customers of the lender end up footing the bill (usually by higher interest payments or fees)?<br /><br />And I totally agree on how flippant we are with consumer debt. I read tons of articles/tweets/rants on how big a problem student debt is, and not nearly that many on consumer debt...which is more than twice the size and, you know, doesn't give you a much larger salary like a bachelor's typically does.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-2315802783988139582016-10-18T09:12:06.673-07:002016-10-18T09:12:06.673-07:00Love that book, and it's probably the original...Love that book, and it's probably the original documentation of "Stealth Wealth".<br /><br />And insecurity probably is at the heart of some of our poor financial behavior. When we are more confident and accepting of who we are, we're less likely to try to compensate with money.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-3017379924668116342016-10-18T08:59:20.084-07:002016-10-18T08:59:20.084-07:00"What does it matter if my neighbor gets a li... "What does it matter if my neighbor gets a little self-worth from having a second car in the driveway?" It will matter when said neighbor has to file for bky and you as a taxpayer end up footing the bill. :-) <br /><br />LOVE this and think you're totally right on, DB40. I just read an article (and wrote about it) recently where the supposed expert said that the avg 15k credit card bill is perfectly acceptable as long as you can make the payments okay.<br /><br />It's this kind of flippant attitude about debt and the pursuit of stuff that's gotten this country (us included) in the mess it's in. <br /><br />As long as people continue to "compare themselves among themselves" they'll continue to be "not wise". :-)Laurie @thefrugalfarmerhttp://www.thefrugalfarmer.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-80827173157272659602016-10-18T08:41:00.869-07:002016-10-18T08:41:00.869-07:00I hear you, but class comes with status: they'...I hear you, but class comes with status: they're linked. I'm not optimistic that we'll be able to identify one class as "upper", one as "middle", and one as "lower" and somehow remove the status connotations that are inherent with that kind of hierarchy.<br /><br />While the post focused on the idea that there are problems with using purchases as a heuristic for which class someone belongs to, I think you're making a larger critique of the classes themselves: that they (erroneously) connote status, regardless of how we define them.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-67138471665082815142016-10-18T03:28:02.836-07:002016-10-18T03:28:02.836-07:00"When class is defined by purchases, then spe..."When class is defined by purchases, then spending is used as a proxy for status"<br /><br />I think this is the problem. I don't see why people make this false equivalency (or proxy, as you call it). Class by spending is an algorithmic clustering of households that outwardly "look" similar. Status is, I believe, closer to a determination of someone's worth: whether or not they should be admired, or have a life that should be aspired to by other for one reason or another. They're two completely different concepts and it honestly baffles me why many seem to use them as interchangeable. Mrs PoP @ Planting Our Pennieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03092406694266872975noreply@blogger.com