tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post7913172815766835271..comments2024-03-29T03:03:36.922-07:00Comments on Done by Forty: Boredom, Cognitive Ability, and the Mental Retirement EffectDone By Fortyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-45899897980159517052019-02-27T03:24:10.163-07:002019-02-27T03:24:10.163-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.saadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01268916220539938415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-6337616519521491122018-10-09T19:38:27.655-07:002018-10-09T19:38:27.655-07:00I completely agree that the mind is like any other...I completely agree that the mind is like any other muscle that needs to be exercised. Just because we get older doesn't mean we have to lose our purpose and much less our minds. There's always something we can do. Find a new passion, cause, something that continues to give life meaning. Continue setting goals for yourself. Planning for your Futurehttps://sapientlawgroup.com/estate-planning/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-76473002774419278012018-04-25T07:21:57.215-07:002018-04-25T07:21:57.215-07:00I am interested in being well and acting from that...I am interested in being well and acting from that with new intent. This assumes new strength. Do service users have such strength?<a href="http://www.mentalismminds.com/how-to-become-a-mentalist/" rel="nofollow">Mentalism Minds</a><br />Jack Sonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11169326970593595904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-76176580948656142142017-11-14T12:54:07.642-07:002017-11-14T12:54:07.642-07:00First, congratulations for reaching FI and for roc...First, congratulations for reaching FI and for rocking it for so long.<br /><br />I agree that there are real risks to the RE part of FIRE: risks that many in the community refuse to even entertain.<br /><br />I love your plan to keep working and giving. It's a fantastic way to do good outside of the typical "volunteer" plan that many in our world want to pursue.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-75513616999058970322017-11-14T10:33:58.049-07:002017-11-14T10:33:58.049-07:00FI is easy, RE is sooooooo hard. We've been fi...FI is easy, RE is sooooooo hard. We've been financial independent for a decade. Unfortunately still can't figure out what we are going to do if we stop working. A few friends who retire early either started their own business (still working), or sit home watching YouTube and became alcoholics. There's really no way to retire early unless your kids are off to college and you can travel and keep yourself stimulated, until then, we'll just keep working and donating more to charities.Tenzillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15344301059016081066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-17455516130958898022017-08-07T14:50:32.675-07:002017-08-07T14:50:32.675-07:00I agree that there is a need for more research, an...I agree that there is a need for more research, and there are certainly ways in which you can challenge the authors' conclusion that the effect was causal.<br /><br />But I think your take is overly optimistic. Given the uncertainty that your response hinges on (Is the damage reversible? Is the decline in the memory test misleading? Where are the studies on retirees of different ages?) I'm not sure I'd simply leap to the conclusion that there's not much to worry about, and that I'll be fine.<br /><br />If I were to take your criticisms and come to a conclusion, it would be that there's more to read and research in this area.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-26507797894574422712017-08-07T14:10:15.323-07:002017-08-07T14:10:15.323-07:00There are problems with how some of this data is r...There are problems with how some of this data is represented in those papers and the Freakonomics discussion.<br /><br />Firstly, you are worried about the paper that shows a correlation between cognitive decline and retirement-age in different countries. And your worry seems to be related to the large longitudinal study that also shows cognitive decline with age. But cognition in both those papers are determined in very different ways. <br /><br />The paper that correlates decline in cognition with retirement age only has a single memory-related cognition test. It simply asks if you can recall some words a short while after they were first read out. That is a very limited definition of cognition. In fact it is simply a memory test. We know there is a great deal of plasticity in the brain - throughout the whole of one's life. But there is no analysis in this paper as to whether the memory decline is reversible. Maybe simply through needing to and then actively engaging in memorizing sets of unrelated words. So does decline in this area matter at all? Does it impair life? That is unanswered.<br /><br />The second larger study defines cognition in a far more comprehensive way using multiple metrics. Only one of which is memory. And that shows a slow decline with age. In this one they do attempt to determine if that decline affects an individual's ability to be active and self sufficient in our society. And the numbers so affected are small. But again no one has studied whether any of this decline is reversible. And in this case there is no break out of individuals retiring at different ages.<br /><br />Secondly, there is a somewhat less data driven discussion, on the podcast, of boredom. The implication being that boredom is bad and leads to unhappiness. But there are a lot of recent studies that show boredom is useful and to some degree necessary. It frees the brain to be creative, it reduces the over stimulation of modern technology (that in itself ironically is also linked to unhappiness!), it relieves stress and it actually encourages/stimulates people to find and undertake more meaningful activities.<br /><br />That is a long winded way of saying don't worry too much about falling into some sort of bad cognitive decline when you retire. We know far too little about the complex system that is our brian.<br /><br />You'll be fine :)<br />Mark0https://www.blogger.com/profile/12048565176372914601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-30716557924396335062017-06-25T10:11:19.377-07:002017-06-25T10:11:19.377-07:00I'm surprised so many people are disputing the...I'm surprised so many people are disputing these findings. In my experience you don't need a study to prove that retiring can cause some boredom and depression. That doesn't mean that it isn't a great goal to aspire to or that working in a sucky job is a better option though!<br /><br />I have seen many older friends and relatives retire and - despite their best efforts and despite being "busy" with random hobbies and even despite having close family relationships - become bored and depressed. I've seen the same thing happen to parents who leave the workforce to raise kids (even though they are busy as heck and occupied with an immensely meaningful pursuit). It also occurs in wealthy "trust fund kids" and lottery winners and celebrities that achieve wealth at a young age. When you don't HAVE to work or your job is too easy it can ironically cause anxiety and a sense of purposelessness - I've experienced that first hand.<br /><br />As a species we did not evolve in a way that encouraged rest, self-indulgence or laziness. We evolved to work - and to find satisfaction and pride and purpose in work - for obvious reasons. Our modern world has given us things that we love that we think make us "happy" such as unlimited amounts of cheap delicious easily accessible food, unlimited amounts of cheap, easily accessible entertainment, unparalleled privacy and distance from other humans, and the ability to exist without having to work. All these things are fine on the surface and do provide fleeting pleasures. But taken in excess they are harmful, unhealthy, and will inevitably cause disease and societal decline. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02911033395758972708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-78013026250878403442017-06-04T12:05:28.899-07:002017-06-04T12:05:28.899-07:00Agreed on the overall point: work towards FI, but ...Agreed on the overall point: work towards FI, but be aware of the risks, and try to mitigate them. On that front, we're in agreement.<br /><br />I don't have the same problem with the title that you do, and I disagree it intended to "tear down ER". Seems like a stretch from where I sit. Frankly, I think this is an issue of semantics, and kind of a nit: no title choice is going to please everyone. <br /><br />Reading through those forum links now. It seems they reference different studies on the same subject, which is great. More for me to read. :)Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-88482174512431374602017-06-04T10:54:18.481-07:002017-06-04T10:54:18.481-07:00No worries.
I'm not offended in the least (I...No worries. <br /><br />I'm not offended in the least (I'm not sure I actually can get offended).<br /><br />I always have to laugh though at a post called "Why Early Retirement Isn't As Awesome As It Sounds". Why is there a need to convince anyone early retirement isn't great?<br /><br />I did read your post in its entirety. I did go skim the freakonomics transcript, but just part of it; I'm well familiar with the research, it's been around the ER community for years.<br /><br />Some discussion on the MMM forums, for example, with this first post being about 4 years old:<br />https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/a-reason-not-to-retire-early/<br />https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mustachianism-around-the-web/fire-bad-for-the-brain/<br /><br />You can find it in the other ER communities as well (E-R.org, for example), and much discussion around it, potential problems with the research, etc.<br /><br />In the end, it's one thing to look out for.<br /><br />Boredom is another. Depression. Disillusionment. Disconnection. Isolation.<br /><br />All of these things can occur. That doesn't mean they have to, or that early retirement itself isn't great. I think simply being aware of them helps, and talking about ways to mitigate these things is the way to go.<br /><br />The thought experiment was intended to help make it clear about one's feelings on ER, if it's still worth it to a particular individual, or not.<br /><br />I'm betting the extra decades of freedom would be worth it to most people, so the LH article titling it "Why ER isn't as awesome as it sounds" is misleading to all those people. Especially the majority who will glance at the title, skim for a second, and then give up on saving towards ER.<br /><br />Having seen many, many people's lives change (though the MMM forums, and emails I've received personally about changes people are making in their lives due to our example), I have a hard time doing anything but chuckle at people (not you, necessarily, but say, the editor who wrote the clickbait article title on this one) who try to tear down ER. So many people have changed their lives for the better due to the concept, whether that's getting total freedom, or just not living paycheck to paycheck, being able to handle an emergency, or being able to take time off to care for a sick or dying family member, there's so many examples of ER--and the process of striving for it--being amazing.<br /><br />A maybe potential side effect that probably can be mitigated? Okay, cool. <br /><br />At Camp Mustache 3 (2016) I lead a breakout session on "Post-FI." I totally agree everyone should have a post-FI plan.<br /><br />But still charge towards FI as fast as reasonably possible. ;)AdventuringAlonghttp://www.adventuringalong.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-61551056331303479582017-06-04T10:35:09.137-07:002017-06-04T10:35:09.137-07:00Just to be clear, you didn't hit a nerve here....Just to be clear, you didn't hit a nerve here. I was actually thinking that you might be taking things personally, as someone who's already FI and might be learning of this research for the first time.<br /><br />All I was really wanting to know is if you bothered to read the source material or my blog post prior to commenting. It's not a huge deal either way: it just changes the type of discussion we have.<br /><br />Anyway, no hard feeling at all, and apologies if I ruffled any feathers. <br /><br />Cheers.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-61705534789936589012017-06-04T10:30:59.550-07:002017-06-04T10:30:59.550-07:00Since you seem to have taken my thought experiment...Since you seem to have taken my thought experiment personally (hypotheticals aren't meant as an attack), I'll bow out here.<br /><br />One thing I will recommend you do is read the LivingaFI blog.<br /><br />https://livingafi.com/<br /><br />It covers the "better job of mapping out what this next life is going to look like" aspect, and the psychology of retiring early very well.<br /><br />Cheers!AdventuringAlonghttp://www.adventuringalong.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-8688010926828596072017-06-04T08:56:28.887-07:002017-06-04T08:56:28.887-07:00"If staying mentally sharp until the day you ..."If staying mentally sharp until the day you die is the point of life to you, and you think a job is the way to do that, go nuts! :)"<br /><br />I guess we're in the strawman part of the discussion. <br /><br />I can see that you're very skeptical of the research, but I have to ask: did you actually read the paper by Rohwedder & Willis, "Mental Retirement" linked to in Kristin's piece, my article, & the Freakonomic podcast? If not, that might be a good next step to test your skepticism.<br /><br />The hypothetical question you posed makes me wonder if you read the blog post that you're commenting on here. Which of the two choices I'd pick is pretty clear. But just for the sake of clarity, here's the 2nd to final paragraph from my post on the subject:<br /><br />"I don't want to say that this podcast spooked me and now I plan on working until traditional retirement age. That's not happening. But I'm not as keen on the idea of "just figuring this early retirement thing out as I go", either. I need to do a better job of mapping out what this next life is going to look like, and how I'm going to keep my mind sharp without all the benefits of a structured work environment."<br /><br />Again, I feel like you might think there's a criticism of early retirement here, when there is not. But just as with any life change, one should be aware of the possible risks along with the stated benefits.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-76407099552518393722017-06-04T05:34:44.490-07:002017-06-04T05:34:44.490-07:00Okay, thought experiment time.
Let's pretend ...Okay, thought experiment time.<br /><br />Let's pretend for a second that some cognitive decline in ER is not only true, but inevitable (i.e. nothing you can do will keep you sharp except paid work). I'm very skeptical, but let's go with it for this thought experiment.<br /><br />Here's your choices then:<br />1) Work until you're 70 at a 9-5, 40-50 hour/week job. Stay mentally "sharp".<br />2) Early retire at 30-40. Have an extra 3 to 4 decades of freedom, and spend the bulk of your life doing whatever you want. Experience some cognitive decline (which in this scenario is unavoidable).<br /><br />Which do you choose?<br /><br />I don't know about you, but I'll take number two every time. Even if there is cognitive decline, and it's unavoidable, I'd still prefer total freedom, travel, hobbies, etc. over staying "sharp" and going to work day in and day out for decades more.<br /><br />And, again, I'm betting just being aware of it will help one stave it off.<br /><br />But to each their own. If staying mentally sharp until the day you die is the point of life to you, and you think a job is the way to do that, go nuts! :)<br /><br />I'm betting most people would take option two in my scenario though.AdventuringAlonghttp://www.adventuringalong.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-59250141106197535872017-06-03T23:25:26.638-07:002017-06-03T23:25:26.638-07:00Thanks for the detailed comment, and for stopping ...Thanks for the detailed comment, and for stopping by from LifeHacker. <br /><br />And also, congratulations on the super early retirement! That's incredible.<br /><br />Not to get too deep in the weeds, I think the thing that most of the FIRE bloggers/readers/early retirees seem to be tripping over is the notion that "I'll just stay busy/mentally engaged in early retirement and that will take care of things." But I feel like that misses the point of the research cited in the Freakonomics podcast: put simply, they observed trend was that early retirees had cognitive decline. Was there something different about these early retirees than those in the FIRE community? Perhaps. But it's a big leap to presume what that is. The researchers concluded that it was the retirement itself that was causal.<br /><br />Anyway, I know this post throws some water on our plans/dreams. I just want to be really clear that there is an observable, documented risk to our mental abilities, and it really does not seem to be all that clear that simply doing things like hobbies, new interest, sports, relationships etc. will definitely stave off that mental decline in the way that traditional work seems to.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-28041304883214380472017-06-03T22:29:23.946-07:002017-06-03T22:29:23.946-07:00Came over from the Lifehacker article. As I wrote...Came over from the Lifehacker article. As I wrote over there:<br />There’s TONS to do in ER that will keep your brain sharp. Hobbies, new interests, continual learning, volunteer work, sports, relationship growth, personal growth, etc. etc.<br /><br />Early Retirement gives you the TIME to do these things. I’d worry about a brain atrophying while doing the same monotonous work in a cubicle for decades more so than it atrophying in early retirement, with the many options available to you.<br /><br />Retirement doesn’t mean you do nothing, it means you can do anything! :)<br /><br />I retired two years ago (just before turning 30) and haven't been bored for a second yet.AdventuringAlonghttp://www.adventuringalong.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-7442440424789540342017-06-03T17:01:30.917-07:002017-06-03T17:01:30.917-07:00I never comment but just had to reply to this afte...I never comment but just had to reply to this after reading the life hacker article. <br /><br />My husband and I have been financially independent for 2 years (both 36). He's started woodworking and I'm looking after our 3 year old. Perhaps both can be considered 'working' and therefore not valid for ER but we are both a lot more mentally and emotionally challenged now than we were in our IT jobs. I feel like I've used my brain more, not less, since then. <br /><br />I agree that finding something challenging is key - it's just that you can choose it yourself rather than have it dictated by a boss / company. And if you go deeply into most topics you will find challenge. You just need the passion to sustain you that far. <br /><br />I also agree with Emily - I have not wanted a holiday because I have so much more balance in my life and nothing to get away from. <br /><br />TBH the only negative we've found is societal pressure for at least one of us to be working. That was harder than expected. melthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733309823851554800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-62704858216282124552017-05-05T14:34:11.410-07:002017-05-05T14:34:11.410-07:00Hey, I just wrote about this. I'm doing very w...Hey, I just wrote about this. I'm doing very well in retirement and my observation is that you need one or two huge project to keep you busy. Check it out. <br />http://retireby40.org/secret-happy-early-retirement/<br />It's not a big deal for early retirees anyway. If it doesn't work out, you can always go back to work. One of my reader did that and figured out how to improve his work situation. <br />retirebyfortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02180702594001358403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-67108046755023953262017-05-03T10:27:44.562-07:002017-05-03T10:27:44.562-07:00I got the chance to lounge around last Saturday. ...I got the chance to lounge around last Saturday. As my motivation waned and my thought began to wander, I felt some sadness creep in for people lost, opportunities not taken. Then I thought of this blog post and thought, "Ahhhhh! It's happening! I can never retire and give in to the darkness!" I had better have a solid plan to keep active before I quit my job. Daizyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02508550128007940488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-85803790701253089242017-04-30T15:42:15.583-07:002017-04-30T15:42:15.583-07:00I hear you, Daizy. At least in the absence of some...I hear you, Daizy. At least in the absence of some more conclusive, causal research on what specifically in work we ought to emulate in retirement, maybe just keeping busy is the best approach.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-11821649352512750752017-04-30T15:40:35.134-07:002017-04-30T15:40:35.134-07:00Hi Petra. I believe you can dig into the research ...Hi Petra. I believe you can dig into the research in the podcast transcript's research section:<br /><br />http://freakonomics.com/podcast/am-i-boring-you-a-new-freakonomics-radio-episode/<br /><br />These are the three links I think you want:<br /><br />The National Institute on Aging’s Health and Retirement Study.<br /><br />“Mental Retirement” by Susann Rohwedder and Robert J. Willis (working paper, 2009).<br /><br />“Documentation of Cognitive Functioning Measures in the Health and Retirement Study” by Mary Beth Ofstedal, Gwenith G. Fisher and A. Regula Herzog (2005).Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-39483200300674563122017-04-30T15:38:28.414-07:002017-04-30T15:38:28.414-07:00Very cool to get the perspective of a psychologist...Very cool to get the perspective of a psychologist, Tim. It seems like you're one of the few who agrees with the negative impacts that seem to happen after retirement (or, as you noted, any major life change).<br /><br />I feel the same way you do about the time I have left until retirement: it's good that I have some years to figure it out. But, also, enough years that I may procrastinate on it.Done By Fortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246597867355460723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-89033074558476444882017-04-28T11:43:21.091-07:002017-04-28T11:43:21.091-07:00I worry about this but not for early retirement. ...I worry about this but not for early retirement. I have too many projects and hobbies. I worry about later when my health will decline and my mind will probably decline too. I see my mother living alone, bored and depressed, because she has lost her husband, is losing her memory, health is declining, struggles to get through the day. I hope that is still at least 30 years off for me. Maybe the challenge of keeping busy will be enough of a challenge to keep me from being bored. Daizyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02508550128007940488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-70271788546508310332017-04-28T00:12:31.367-07:002017-04-28T00:12:31.367-07:00As someone who trained to be a biomedical scientis...As someone who trained to be a biomedical scientist, I want to look at their actual data, and see how big the differences they found, are. And perhaps also see whether they focused on the one different measurement they found, ignoring the other say 8 measurements of cognitive ability that didn't show any "significant" differences. (How much did they have to massage their data to come up with a significant result?)PetraHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11805005035797748521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2980246226076317453.post-22096039080483033922017-04-27T08:16:13.924-07:002017-04-27T08:16:13.924-07:00This is something I see regularly--I work as a psy...This is something I see regularly--I work as a psychologist and many of my patients struggle with depression following major life changes, both good and bad, and discussing what to refocus their time/energy on once they retire/are disabled/etc is often something they never thought about. The ones that do the best are the ones who can figure out what a meaningful life looks like, and work to emulate that as best they can. <br /><br />This is honestly the thing I worry about most when I do retire--money will be fine, I can always work part-time, but what if I can't figure out how to stay engaged in things I find interesting? Good thing/bad thing I have some years before I have to figure that out...Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646976888208892550noreply@blogger.com